Re: Outrageous Agenda of Calcutta Group

Moderators' Note: It should be clear to all that of all the different splinter groups in Ananda Marga today, only the Kolkata group publishes Baba's books. All the sound files of Baba's discourses are at their Tiljala ashram, and no other group has sound files. So only Kolkata group is doing any publishing work; other groups like Ranchi group merely copy the books and reprint them. Because of that, Kolkata group is responsible for what is being published.

For that reason, these letters are being addressed to Kolkata group. Additionally, the Kolkata group has via their representative issued a policy statement which was printed a few days ago on this googlegroups. The whole letter has been published on our blog for any who would like to review it. (1)
 
This forum has no alliance with any group, and actively disapproves of all groups and group sentiments.
 
In His service,
 
Ciranútana
Ánanda Márga Discourse network Editors
 
P.S. Please read below the letter sent in from Márgii brother Jiivesha.

---------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 2013 15:16:08 -0000
From: "JSchultz" <jschultz@e-way...>
To: anandamargauiversal@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Outrageous Agenda of Calcutta Group


BABA

Namaskar,

Outrageous Agenda of Calcutta Group

Discourse Portion Removal Harmful

This letter examines the question of whether Ananda Marga Publishers can remove actual discourse content from Baba's discourses if they so choose. It specifically considers whether Baba's "traitor example" is important to the discourse "The Lord's Feet", and concludes that removal of discourse content such as the "traitor example" is harmful. It leads to both loss of integrity of the discourse, and in many cases such as this, makes the meaning of the discourse unclear.

I have found the matter of Kolkata group Publ Dept's policy statement extremely interesting and important. Because like all Margis, I want to see our Guru Baba's discourses published "as is", and I find it very disturbing that Kolkata group is removing sections of Baba's discourses before publishing them.

Publishers Cannot Remove Discourse Content

Editing Rights Only Pertain To Syntax

I appreciate Ramnathan ji's letter posted yesterday. In it he has expressed,

"Baba's mention of the traitor group during His discourse "The Lord's Feet", is a matter of actual discourse content: This is the subject Baba chose to raise. In matters of content, the question of Kolkata group Publishers applying the principle you describe-- "balance between printed language and spoken language"-- to decide what content to include/exclude, must not arise. Because where subject matter is concerned, everything Baba said has to be included: there is no question of removing certain parts of the subject matter. So if Baba has raised the subject of the "traitor group" in His discourse, then Kolkata group Publishers have to include it."

Kolkata Group Wrongly Claims:

Baba's Traitor Group Example "Unimportant" to Discourse

Kiritji, representative of Kolkata Publishers, has written concerning Baba's discussion of the "traitor group":

"Furthermore, it is an example and
not the part of the point of what Baba is saying."

The blindness of the "traitor group", consisting of most of the Central dadas of 1971 plus a good number of non-Central dadas as well, is the essential point Baba is teaching in the discourse, "The Lord's Feet". Baba is giving the teaching about Gayasura blindly going against Visnu, the very Entity who gave him his power. Baba tells this story for the reason of teaching what the traitor group did is the same thing. For that reason Baba refers to the "traitor group" at the critical part of the Gayasur story.

Remember that this discourse was given during the climax of all the traitorous activity in Ananda Marga. The discourse was given in December 1971, just days before Baba was put in jail. It was in this very year of 1971 that front page articles were being printed in all the Indian newspapers. The events related with the traitor group's negative activities were uppermost in everyone's mind. It was a time of crisis in the Organization, when a huge percentage of persons defected behind the black leadership of the traitors. And of course, in the end it was all the Liila of Parama Purusa. For Baba it was all just His drama, for the purpose of teaching the society. So there is nothing to hide here, no reason to delete this from Baba's discourse. The traitor group's activities were a major event showing how "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Baba is using this discourse "The Lord's Feet", to highlight it.

Kolkata Group Claims: "Not Harmful to Remove Part of Discourse"

The Kolkata Group's Representative has further expressed:

"Removing that portion does not harm the discourse"

Removing that portion most certainly harms the discourse: firstly, because Baba is Guru and the Publishers do not have the right to "remove portions"; and second, because that portion about the traitors is the main message Baba is giving in the discourse. As mentioned, the blindness of Central dadas in going against Baba was the main them in the organization in those days of December 1971. It was only days before Baba was put in jail for seven years due to their negative and traitorous behavior. This is the one discourse where Baba has spoken about this matter and given a teaching about it.

In sum, Ananda Marga Publishers cannot remove actual discourse content from Baba's discourses if they so choose. Baba's "traitor example" is the main message in the discourse "The Lord's Feet", as evident by the historical time it was given. Removal of discourse content is harmful; it leads to both loss of integrity of the discourse, and makes the meaning of the discourse unclear.

In Him,
Jiivesha Schultz

(1) To View Kolkata Group Publications Policy Statement, click here

Outrageous Agenda of Calcutta Group: Re: Traitor's Example

From: "S.Ramnathan" sramnathan@times.in....
To: ananda-marga-discourses-1@yogasamsthanam.net
Subject: Outrageous Agenda of Calcutta Group
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 10:24:08 +0530 (IST)

BABA

Outrageous Agenda of Calcutta Group

Re: Traitor's Example

Namaskar,

Thank you Surabhi ji for writing on this vital matter of scriptural integrity. You mentioned in your letter that Kiritji is writing as a representative of the Kolkata group Publications Department:

When you have written "as publishers, we..." then it is clear you are not the person fully responsible for the policy stated here. Because the "we the publishers" means the publications department, & in particular Publications Dept (B). And the head of the Publications Department (B) is Ac. Sarvatmananda Avt. We margis have seen through time that what you have written here is indeed the policy of AMPS (B) publications department and so Kiritji I have full sympathy for you, you are merely expressing the policy which you have been instructed to give.

It is clear from Kiritji's letter that what you have expressed is completely true. Indeed, his whole letter is written from the perspective of one who represents the Kolkata group Publications Department.

Kiritji: I found your below Publisher's Policy to be worthy of comment:

2. Regarding omission of text:

As  publishers, we have to maintain a balance between  the printed language and the spoken language. Printed language is for the whole world who have no idea of the "traitor group". May be even many margiis also do not know about the "traitor group". It would seem confusing and out of place to them.

Baba's mention of the traitor group during His discourse "The Lord's Feet", is a matter of actual discourse content: This is the subject Baba chose to raise. In matters of content, the question of Kolkata group Publishers applying the principle you describe-- "balance between printed language and spoken language"-- to decide what content to include/exclude, must not arise. Because where subject matter is concerned, everything Baba said has to be included: there is no question of removing certain parts of the subject matter. So if Baba has raised the subject of the "traitor group" in His discourse, then Kolkata group Publishers have to include it.

In contrast if Baba has used colloquial language, for example, "that's", and you the Publishers want to print "that is", there you can talk about printed language-spoken language distinction. Because this is a matter of syntax and not content, so here you as Publishers have that freedom to make changes.

In other words, for Baba's discourses, the Publishers have the right to edit regarding matters of syntax-- but not matters of content. If in the name of "balance between printed language and spoken language" the Publishers begin fooling with the actual content of the discourse, then they are taking liberty with this principle. Simple points of grammar can be changed on this basis, yes. But that is all. Baba has decided what should be included in the discourse de facto, by saying what He says during it. It is beyond the realm of a publisher's job to question Baba's decision by tampering with the content.

As representative of the Kolkata group Publications Dept you have written, "Printed language is for the whole world who have no idea of the 'traitor group'": Does the Kolkata group Publications Dept think Baba has not given His discourses for the "whole world"? All margis know that Baba's discourses are meant for the entire world. He has given His discourses so they will be published and maintained for access by all the world. If Baba has given a teaching on the "traitor group" in a discourse, then His giving it in the discourse means it is for all the world.

Kolkata group Publishers state Baba has given the "traitor example" in "The Lord's Feet" discourse, but because some may not be familiar yet with the history of the traitor Central dadas of 1971, so this portion of the discourse is not fit to be printed. This makes it sound like Baba's discourses are intended for only some very small group of people, whose duty it is to become a middle-agent between Baba's discourses and the world. Indeed, your policy statement makes it sound like Kolkata group believes Baba does not know Himself what to include for the "whole world" and what not, and has left it to the Publishers to decide!

All know that when Baba wanted to make a comment or give a teaching that was not meant for the general public, He would specifically instruct to turn off the recording machine. But when Baba has given a discourse before all the Ma'rgiis, and that too with the tape recorder running--as with the discourse "The Lord's Feet"--then it is obvious that what He is telling is meant for all, and for all time to come. To question Baba's decision on discourse content is beyond the scope of the Publisher. It is completely beyond your rights as Publishers.

Your Kolkata Group Publ. Dept policy statement further justifies excluding Baba's teaching about the traitor group, in the following way: "May be even many margiis also do not know about the 'traitor group'. It would seem confusing and out of place to them." There are many things that Ma'rgis and non-Ma'rgiis alike do not know about in Baba's discourses. That is why Baba is giving the discourse: to teach and educate us. (If everyone knew everything in the discourse before reading it, there would be no need for the discourse.) And if there are matters brought up in any discourse which would benefit from some further background information, then it becomes the Publishers' duty to supply that information in the form of a footnote. Indeed, that is what Kolkata group Publishers do-- such notes are given at the end of hundreds of discourses, supplying information which makes it easier to understand what Baba is discussing. Such a Publisher's footnote should be given about the traitor group, to make it easy for all to understand Baba's teaching.

In other words, to remove Baba's teaching about the "traitor group" because Kolkata group Publications thinks people do not know the history, is to do injustice with Baba's discourse. Baba has included this teaching and it is the central teaching of the discourse. The Publications Department approach should be to include everything Baba has said (because you have no right to remove it), and to put simply put a note explaining the background where needed.

As for who knows and does not know about the "traitor group": All senior Ma'rgiis who were around in those days are quite familiar with this iconic event. It was intimately and causally linked with Baba's eventual passing of seven long years in jail. That Baba was in jail is a common point in the history of Ananda Marga. And these traitors in cahoots with the CBI were the direct cause of that jail term. It is all part of one grand teaching Baba is giving the society. Rather than hide such key aspects of our history, we ought to learn and benefit from this discourse on the "traitor group".  Such teachings which Baba has given us both in His practical life and discourses, we should use and highlight to teach the world today. 

Yours Brotherly,
S. Ramnathan

Outrageous Agenda of Calcutta Group: Deliberate Deletion of Traitor's Example

From: Surabhi Mukherji <s.mukherji21@computech....>
To: ananda-marga-discourses-1@yogasamsthanam.net
Subject: Outrageous Agenda of Calcutta Group
Sun, 30 Jun 2013 07:34:13 +0530 (IST)

BABA

Outrageous Agenda of Calcutta Group

Deliberate Deletion of Traitor's Example

Namaskar,

I have enjoyed this Baba's quote which you have given last week:

Indeed Baba says, “The scriptures containing spiritual injunctions must be totally flawless.” (Namah Shivaya Shantaya, Disc: 14) So as Ánanda Márgiis, we must take this very seriously and work together to make the printed version of Bábá's discourses perfect.

Baba is telling that scripture is to be kept in perfect condition. That means as Baba spoke in His discourse, so it should be printed exactly like that. He is Guru, and He decides what He will say and what He will not say. That which Baba has spoken during pravacan, He intends for all the world.

What right does anyone to have to say that "No, although Baba has spoken it but we will not print it." This to me is some sort of outrageous idea. Guru speaks, and it is the duty of the publishers to print. As soon as publishers begin selecting which sentences they will print and which they will not, that brings up the ugly specter of distortion.

Kirit ji has written,

2. Regarding omission of text:

As  publishers, we have to maintain a balance between  the printed language and the spoken language. Printed language is for the whole world who have no idea of the "traitor group". May be even many margiis also do not know about the "traitor group". It would seem confusing and out of place to them. Furthermore, it is an example and not the part of the point of what Baba is saying. Removing that portion does not harm the discourse and makes it clearer. Now having said that, let me tell you that I am NOT in favor of changing or removing the text from original in general. And in fact we have to err on the side of keeping the text rather than removing it. But this particular example illustrates why certain text is best removed. 

When you have written "as publishers, we..." then it is clear you are not the person fully responsible for the policy stated here. Because the "we the publishers" means the publications department, & in particular Publications Dept (B). And the head of the Publications Department (B) is Ac. Sarvatmananda Avt. We margis have seen through time that what you have written here is indeed the policy of AMPS (B) publications department and so Kiritji I have full sympathy for you, you are merely expressing the policy which you have been instructed to give.

Following are my thoughts about Publications Dept's decision to remove the traitor group matter from the discourse: When Baba as Guru has spoken about traitor group in His pravacan, it means He has given one teaching about this. Those days when this pravacan was given in early '70s, the traitorous activity of those dadas was in all the newspapers. It was publicly known and it is public information for margis and nonmargis alike.

If readers do not know about this historical point, then editors can add a footnote at the end, explaining it. That is as far as your right goes as publishers.

On one hand AMPS Publications Dept of Kolkata Group is telling above that they are not in favor of changing or removing text and on other hand they are in favor of removing the text about traitor group. What type of hypocrisy is this? The traitor group is part of the history of Ananda Marga, and in His pravacan Guru Baba has given one teaching about how power corrupts Gayasur. The traitor group is closely related with this story, for that reason Baba has specifically mentioned it there. When Guru has given the point about traitor group, then there is no question of removing it. To do so can only be described as distortion of scripture.

Finally, it has been expressed above that the traitor group matter is "not the part of the point of what Baba is saying." But that is not at all the case. It is the major point-- it is completely at the heart of what Baba is telling about Gayasur, how power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Indeed, Baba has likened the traitors to the case of the dambaru of Lord Shiva; this analogy has been made in the discourse specifically for them.

At His feet,
Surabhi Mukherji

Kolkata Group Policy Statement

From:  kirit dave <kdave_bnk@yahoo.com>
To:  ananda-marga-discourses@googlegroups.com <ananda-marga-discourses@googlegroups.com>
Subject:  Re: [Sadguru Shástra] Lord Shiva's Dambaru is Taken Away
Date:  Fri, 21 Jun 2013 23:59:02 -0700 (PDT) (Sat, 02:59 EDT) 

Sir,

1. You are correct about the errors and Dambru must be used in place of tambura.

2. Regarding omission of text:

As  publishers, we have to maintain a balance between  the printed language and the spoken language. Printed language is for the whole world who have no idea of the "traitor group". May be even many margiis also do not know about the "traitor group". It would seem confusing and out of place to them. Furthermore, it is an example and not the part of the point of what Baba is saying. Removing that portion does not harm the discourse and makes it clearer. Now having said that, let me tell you that I am NOT in favor of changing or removing the text from original in general. And in fact we have to err on the side of keeping the text rather than removing it. But this particular example illustrates why certain text is best removed.

3. Did you tell your reader that the discourse was from the book Baba's Grace? I did not see that very important information. Do you know the history of that book? Do you know it was NOT published by the official publication department but was published in early 70's when the publishing policies and procedures were not strict or clear, while Baba was in jail? Do you also know that this book was "banned" for some time during when dada Pranavananda ji was publication secretary for that reason? Furthermore, to top it all, do you know that this book is one of the MOST popular A.M. book among margiis and nonmargiis, evident by the demand for that book? In my opinion this is the reason this book was revived again.

4. While I congratulate and thank you for your efforts in pointing out the errors in the books, do you think you can serve your own cause more by using more constructive language and try to stop adversarial, conspiratorial tone? Also if you try to understand how the error happened, you can yourself understand the limitations we face... on one hand to publish and bring Baba's message to the world and on the other hand the difficulties inherent to this type of work.

5. In order for you to understand the difficulties in the translation work, try to translate one of Baba's articles entirely by yourself. Then pass it on to other qualified people and see what they tell you about the mistakes in your translation.  This will tell you real problem faced in the work. It is not some kind of conspiracy and ill intent on our part. The real problems are many varied. To name a few: the material is intuitional in nature, the English language has its limitations in expressing the concepts, Baba's language is of very high caliber literature making it difficult to translate, the translators we have available are not highly scholarly (perhaps you can volunteer some time to help with this problem), the funds available are limited and the total load of work is enormous. It is easy to translate one line or paragraph and point out the error. And you have valid point about the sanctity of the books .. who can disagree on that and errors must be corrected. All you need to do is to point out the error and let me further tell you there are more errors in the books, and there will be even more new errors in the books. We are all humans and we should work together to expediently remove errors from the books.

We are currently working on the web site that will publish all the known errors and readers will be able to tell publication department the errors they find so that they can be corrected.

You should be careful in criticism and consider the purpose, motivation, efforts being made, sincerity, matter of judgment call etc. If you are careful, your efforts will become more constructive and scriptures will become more genuine which is what we all want.

6. Please report more errors and we will do our best to correct them within the frame work of the rules of operations. For example the error you pointed out regarding dumbru should be corrected in the next revision. Thank you for that.

Kirit Dave'